Adina Gray: AI Innovation in Canadian Schools and Universities (eng)

00:00:00: Welcome to a new episode of People Of Tech, the podcast by Karrir.

00:00:05: Our goal is to inform students about career opportunities in the field of AI.

00:00:09: so sit back listen and enjoy this episode!

00:00:29: Adina Gray.

00:00:31: Thank you for having me here

00:00:32: and I'm gonna start right over, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

00:00:36: And what should do?

00:00:38: Sure.

00:00:39: So my name is Adina Grace, I spent most of my career in higher education and was a teaching professor at the University of Canada for the past fifteen years.

00:00:50: I taught in business school and always had strong interest in ed tech or educational technology.

00:00:56: so over these years i experimented with many different platforms to engage students interesting and fun.

00:01:06: And when Generative AI came along in twenty-twenty two, I was really intrigued by the potential of it.

00:01:12: was just chat GPT at that time.

00:01:15: so i started spending more and trying to understand how this very different technology will be impacting teaching learning also future work.

00:01:25: So thats what ive done over the past four years.

00:01:28: I continue to teach.

00:01:29: I spend an increasingly amount of time talking to other educators, industry leaders you know tech experts on now how AI is involving and what kind of skills students will need as they move through high school in university into the workplaces.

00:01:48: So that's where i work right now-I have my Purple Owl AI which is my own AI training and consulting business but industry trying to kind of help them navigate this very interesting new world.

00:02:04: Yeah, that's exactly what we want.

00:02:05: you talk about today and will be looking into how AI will change our school system specifically high schools but also partly universities.

00:02:15: so that is why I wanted ask another question.

00:02:18: just turn it around for you How did your first get interested in AI?

00:02:22: How did I get interested in AI?

00:02:24: Well, as they said.

00:02:25: I've always had kind of interesting technology for education because you know... around a long time and I remember when phones, smartphones became really commonplace.

00:02:38: And once they entered the classroom it was difficult to kind of keep students' attention.

00:02:43: and I thought technology at that time before AI with way too get their students to engage in material but still use devices for learning as opposed just mindless scrolling.

00:02:58: Again, in twenty-twenty two when AI came along and I kind of started playing with it.

00:03:02: And I saw the potential for kinda generating interesting course materials like classroom activities that I know a lot students were already experimenting at talking about.

00:03:12: but there was still a bit of skepticism in schools, not just universities but high schools.

00:03:19: Of course about whether this technology is more beneficial than harmful and I think The attitude has changed over these last three years, especially in the education space.

00:03:34: Many universities and even high schools now are starting to move from just banning AI or rejecting it trying to integrate into teaching learning.

00:03:44: but as we were talking earlier there's still a lot of work university faculty and students on what these tools are, how they can be helpful.

00:03:58: And harmful sometimes.

00:03:59: yeah

00:04:01: Sometimes I have the feeling that we many times only speak about positive aspects of AI.

00:04:06: but i want to ask you What has been biggest challenge in your AI journey?

00:04:10: Yeah,

00:04:13: well like any technology AI I think has potential and has potential harms.

00:04:20: so it's not there.

00:04:22: AI or the technology itself is how it's being used, right?

00:04:26: As a student for example you can use it to enhance your learning too.

00:04:31: You can use that as a personal tutor to explain new things that you may not understand.

00:04:36: he can answer questions help with homework brainstorm ideas at eleven o'clock at night when your teacher isn't available but they also be used.

00:04:45: short change and shortcut your learning.

00:04:48: so I think Pushback and skepticism around AI from the teacher's side is that they're really concerned that students will lose their critical thinking skills, ability to learn on their own.

00:05:02: They won't develop domain expertise right?

00:05:07: As helpful as these tools are at end of day you still have to specialize in something.

00:05:14: so if want become a lawyer or doctor an engineer Even a coder, even though a lot of coding now is run by AI you have to understand the output.

00:05:24: So I think that challenge for me when i was teaching but also educators that I spoke with at universities and high schools across Canada in different places Again, doesn't shortcut and short change.

00:05:40: the learning is still help students develop this judgment then critical thinking and cognitive skills.

00:05:46: And expertise in a domain.

00:05:50: but you know enhancing those skills rather than removing them?

00:05:55: In my opinion it's just how its being used an integrated like their ways to do it thoughtfully and productively use it to replace your thinking.

00:06:08: so you lose the ability.

00:06:10: right.

00:06:10: well, you lose that ability to solve problems.

00:06:14: and I know there have been several studies now where a group was given AI tools for an assignment.

00:06:20: The groups did on their own but they showed those who do not learn better.

00:06:27: what they were missing is how those students, we're using these AI tools.

00:06:31: Just giving you the tool and asking it to solve a problem or do this assignment for you?

00:06:35: It's counterproductive of course but if you provide training in literacy on how to interact with these tools as thinking partner and collaborator I think that where magic happens!

00:06:50: So i get feeling like your have very positive stance on AI But also talked about people or especially colleagues who are kind of afraid using AI.

00:07:00: They don't want to use it because they see that all the students, they just try and work less or think less And Of course That's a problem but they Don't see the positive side.

00:07:11: So how do you handle when people only criticize AI?

00:07:14: I don't See The good side that they can put to us.

00:07:18: Yeah yeah this is very Good question.

00:07:21: I think this applies not just to teachers' educators, but people in different industries.

00:07:27: Sometimes they see AI as a threat and no way their own knowledge and expertise.

00:07:34: that is professional.

00:07:35: And i have talked with some educators who kind of jokingly say oh well if start using AI like what will the school need me for if students can learn with AI.

00:07:46: So I think we need a shift of mindset that education is no longer about just content delivery, because content and knowledge can be found easily now online or through AI tools.

00:08:00: And teachers and educators have to play different role in supporting students as coaches and mentors to learn without this AI tool just because of the developments in technology and the world we live.

00:08:15: And some of them, especially if they've taught a long time find it difficult to kind get their head around that also because AI is changing so fast.

00:08:33: Years or months, AI hallucinated quite a bit.

00:08:36: So if they some of them engaged with AI early on and then they said oh yeah I just make something so it's incorrect for hallucinate which was almost three years ago, and we know that things are very different today.

00:08:49: But they still have that old mindset.

00:08:52: on the positive side I've seen many people change where their initially very skeptical a few years ago but as universities in high schools um an educational institutions start pushing AI more In terms of you know trying to get People aware Of what it is?

00:09:09: And What use for i think The mindset Is shifting but It will take time.

00:09:14: Yeah, absolutely.

00:09:16: Another important aspect is studying.

00:09:18: every student study or should study.

00:09:21: But what do you think since AI?

00:09:24: How did studying changes change?

00:09:27: yeah that That changes quite a bit too and one of the Questions are items that a lot of educators and students talk about it.

00:09:38: you know, what is the purpose of an education now?

00:09:42: What are the skills that are needed?

00:09:44: in the past when like this was way before your time.

00:09:47: When there were no internet or YouTube anything... You had to memorize, that's how you became an expert into something.

00:09:55: You have to memorize information and facts.

00:09:57: You've got to memorize formulas because there were no calculators or computers.

00:10:02: they could do that for you.

00:10:03: And if we look throughout history as technology evolved our skill set evolves too.

00:10:09: There are things where people no longer need to memorize.

00:10:12: How many phone numbers did you know by heart?

00:10:15: One was not a one maybe your own?

00:10:18: I don't even know my son's cell phone number You know, when I was growing up.

00:10:22: I knew several and you know some people say well we shouldn't be losing the skills it's like.

00:10:28: Well i don't know if memorizing phone numbers It wasn't an important skill at that time but That is no longer important.

00:10:34: Doing math by hand or spreadsheets before Excel spreadsheets Like accountant had to do that By Hand And he took hundreds of hours To Do that.

00:10:42: We No longer need that skill.

00:10:44: Maybe thats a good thing.

00:10:46: So I think The challenge Nobody really has the answer At this point because it's moving so fast is as AI evolves, what are the skills that I still needed?

00:10:57: And perhaps critical thinking judgment reasoning responsibility ethics.

00:11:05: Those sort of things that were are still deeply human and will remain but they need to get memorized formulas in a fax that you can easily access Anywhere, maybe that's not a needed skill anymore.

00:11:23: So when I study it wasn't the time for some kind of exam and most times knowledge gets asked from me For example how do human body works?

00:11:37: the exams will change now that we did a different school set.

00:11:41: Do you think written exams are, it'll still be a thing maybe three or five years?

00:11:46: Or do you think they're changing inherently?

00:11:49: Yeah and thats really interesting question then.

00:11:51: its something I often get asked to speak about with teachers both universities especially high schools.

00:12:00: They want know about AI but integrate or redesign assessments and assignments in the age of AI, right?

00:12:10: Because before again when knowledge was scarce you know producing an essay or a written paper.

00:12:18: Or report analysis is just evidence that student did their studying reading learning how they got evaluated on final reports.

00:12:28: but NEI tool can generate that easily.

00:12:33: The teachers are wondering, like how else do we assess student knowledge?

00:12:37: And some of them I talked to especially if they're more on the skeptical or critical side of AI.

00:12:44: They said well let's it We just going into no assignments and homework were gonna do quizzes in class exams.

00:12:51: at end If you do any papers essay there will be handwritten in the classroom.

00:12:59: And I know of a particular high school where i live in Canada, they have an annual writing competition and one other teacher that knew she was a judge on that panel said oh im going to this competition but writing part to in person on hand, by-hand instead of computers because the fear around AI.

00:13:25: So I was like okay going back time where you're writing my handwriting is terrible cause barely rarely write.

00:13:34: so i think there are all sorts attitudes.

00:13:38: and She just tried to figure out.

00:13:40: how do we get students still again develop some expertise?

00:13:44: You may not need to remember everything memorize.

00:13:47: Everything.

00:13:48: but like I said if you Do want to go to your doctor and have him him or her look up everything online because he hasn't Build us body of knowledge, so you still have to remember memorize some things And others.

00:14:02: maybe now that's important.

00:14:04: So written yeah reading exams in person The teachers who are really thoughtfully incorporating AI into their courses in terms of assignments, I think they're the ones that help students work productively with this AI tools.

00:14:20: So if you have my class and develop a business idea throughout the semester so they use AI to brainstorm or research, build websites design prototypes... things that they wouldn't have time or the expertise to do before.

00:14:36: So now at the end of the semester, they present that project idea where they use AI along the way but we still had explain how did it and why you didn't invite them may not work.

00:14:47: so there's one which is still incorporating AI by not just doing okay learn however even alone.

00:14:53: but I'm gonna test your the answer better.

00:14:55: know

00:14:56: definitely what i always ask myself this many students need to write research paper for college or school, but to what extent should they use AI?

00:15:07: Or What Should They Do Themselves For Example.

00:15:10: For research papers

00:15:11: Yes

00:15:12: Yeah Well this goes back a little bit of whatever I was saying.

00:15:16: no research paper and assignments.

00:15:18: it's kind of similar idea And its not just students But also faculty and teachers.

00:15:23: right A lot Of them are Not Just Teaching Brother.

00:15:25: Doing Research embraced AI early on and he publishes a lot.

00:15:34: He's an economics publisher, a lot of research paper that he uses for example.

00:15:38: this can apply to students too to brainstorm even titles for your paper, right?

00:15:44: Then ask AI to give you five different options and kind of go back and forth and iterate until you're happy with it.

00:15:51: You can use AI too.

00:15:53: perhaps do an outline on the paper or an abstract at the end help you with the analysis generate visuals before you had some skills and expertise in graphic design or Excel whatever to generate those engaging images.

00:16:10: So I think you can work collaboratively with AI, very productively to generate this paper and still learn a lot in the process.

00:16:21: What's...I think some of teachers find challenging is if they only assess your final paper that you submitted.

00:16:27: at end They say, OK.

00:16:29: But if he is AI what part of this was you only?

00:16:33: And how do I separate your contribution from AI so that it's a bit of challenge?

00:16:41: but there are other ways to address and assess the thinking process along way not just give great for final paper again.

00:16:51: But yeah, I think AI will be increasingly used in research right?

00:16:55: Research is very time-consuming sometimes takes months and years And this especially if you look at medical research You know all of these can have real benefits.

00:17:05: Yeah.

00:17:06: So also talked about being able to separate what the students did and what the AI did.

00:17:12: And many times now in my school, I see that students go home.

00:17:17: They have homework and they take a picture until CHBT for example to solve their math problems.

00:17:24: Do you think it still makes sense?

00:17:26: To assign homework or students?

00:17:28: because It's of course is for practice.

00:17:32: But if the only use AI are so the question would be If you think homework still makes sense and if yes, what kind of homework may be something creative that they couldn't do themselves?

00:17:47: Right.

00:17:49: Well as I mentioned earlier some educators have given up on both homework and assignments for their very reason because they feel well AI maybe writing a lot of it.

00:17:59: so The purpose of giving homework is to have something too great or assessed at the end, then I do agree.

00:18:06: It's impossible to tell whether that student... did the problem solving and thinking, whether they use AI as a collaborator where they went back-and-forth.

00:18:17: And ask it to explain if you have a math problem?

00:18:19: Did I walk you through this steps that made me think along the way?

00:18:24: or may students like you said just uploaded question took answer submitted so difficult but assigned with purpose of helping student practice understand and use the class time to help them know how do that productively, as a thinking partner or tutor.

00:18:50: Without worrying so much about grade they received at end.

00:18:54: if students are worried about grades of course just get that grade at the end.

00:19:00: So I think it's the purpose of homework, are you giving something to assess and only assessing this submission?

00:19:07: Then is a problem.

00:19:08: but if they give formative assessment where students have an opportunity for practice then its different story.

00:19:20: How do you think AI will change education over next ten years?

00:19:25: That might not be on our radar now.

00:19:28: Okay, over the next ten years well in AI terms that is an infinity as we know.

00:19:34: even last year alone never mind the last three years things have evolved and developed so much.

00:19:41: So within education space most educational institutions and teachers, you know being very reluctant to engage with AI.

00:19:50: well we're thinking about okay maybe this technology is here to stay.

00:19:54: Maybe something we should pay more attention.

00:19:59: universities and schools, and school districts are actively trying to integrate in some shape or form AI into education.

00:20:08: So you know speculate ten years in the future I think is pretty difficult.

00:20:12: but even within the next few years as these models evolve and develop become more than they are today what i'm hoping will happen education will find a way to kind of seamlessly integrate AI into both teaching and learning.

00:20:31: And, you know be cautious about the some safety security biases risks but also understand that students are entering workplace is very different than even few years ago never mind generations ago.

00:20:49: I think as educators we do have responsibility do care about students being successful later in life, to our best to educate ourselves.

00:20:59: Because I think it's just lack of awareness on education is what prevents some people from really engaging at.

00:21:06: so hopefully they will take this step too.

00:21:09: educate ourselves in AI literacy and also help students work collaboratively with these tools.

00:21:16: I'm hoping that education will become a place where the student learn how to interact, be responsible users while not losing their own creativity or critical thinking so they are better prepared for entering workplace when this tool is commonplace.

00:21:34: So as I said, it's important to integrate AI into our school life.

00:21:39: But i think right now there are many students who want to learn about AI.

00:21:44: so first of all how works but also how they can use it... ...but many don't know where to start.

00:21:50: what advice would you give them?

00:21:52: They get encouraged and have orientation on what to do.

00:21:57: Right um knowing more to start is sometimes overwhelming for both students and teachers, even professionals in the industry.

00:22:08: I have friends who are lawyers and engineers.

00:22:11: they said oh you know i really want to learn more about AI but it's so overwhelming that i don't know where to start right?

00:22:18: So when we talk about students of course Most of them are experimenting with it using AI tools for even personal users, companions and things like that.

00:22:29: So I think from an education perspective the best thing students can do is just engage in conversation with their teachers and push their school to provide more literacy training and also opportunities to engage with AI in a productive and responsible way.

00:22:47: So the schools are at first place or safe places where students can learn about it, then engage with that test kind of limits because there's so many tools out there and I know YouTube is full content creators who teach you their latest tools.

00:23:04: sometimes they use them as well.

00:23:08: helpful for sure, but schools can be a place that kind of curate that information and that knowledge.

00:23:14: And help students move through this very fast changing field.

00:23:21: Yes!

00:23:21: That's it.

00:23:22: Thank you very much For the insight.

00:23:24: It was interesting Especially because we are also student.

00:23:30: Thank you.

00:23:31: I really appreciate the opportunity to talk and find out more about your initiatives, what are they doing?

00:23:37: The fact that you're here at this AI Summit in Geneva is very inspiring and incredible!

00:23:44: You can bring more of your peers on board than also teachers – take what you learn from here You know, maybe push for some changes in terms of how much the teachers and also schools themselves engage with AI because it is beneficial I think everyone.

00:24:03: For your future you're better prepared but also for schools becoming places to learn an experiment.

00:24:10: Yes i think we learned a lot stuff And what are taking away that you should definitely push as he said on AI.

00:24:17: so be careful.

00:24:21: If you're careful, then it can have a lot of benefits.

00:24:25: And those are the ones we need to see and use

00:24:37: in

00:24:47: future.".